09 September 2008

journal: august 2008
a brief step onto my soapbox~

**This post was originally titled Journal: August 2008,

but obviously, I had to change it. I hope everyone will still be my friend :o)

Well, I feel like I haven't really written much of anything substantial lately, just your run of of the mill "this is what is going on with us" kind of posts. I have lots floating around in my head (a lot of it political, but I'm not sure I'm ready to go there here) but I'm really running in survival mode at this point, so it will just have to wait.

On the political note, though, have any of you been following the Sarah Palin "controversy" going on among namely Christian conservative women? Wow! My MOMYS group has been having a field day with it.

I have conflicted feelings both ways. God using her for such a time as this vs. her place should be as her husband's helpmeet and God appointed men to be in civic leadership. The only Biblical exception to this that I know of was Deborah, and the Bible says she was allowed to judge as no man was willing. (Judges 5:2 and 6-7). The glory of the battle went to a woman, and this was considered shameful (Judges 4:9 and 9:54.)

I will say, in my hormonal state, the photo of her on the campaign bus holding her newest little guy did cause me to tear up, not to mention that McCain has six children, she has five, so that speaks volumes to the nation about the value of children. Also McCain's comment at the Saddleback Civil Forum that his greatest moral failure was the failure of his first marriage, and his apparent sincerity in that statement, says something as well.

But. To be particularly blunt, and this is so where I probably shouldn't go, but here goes anyway, I do believe her place should be in the home (have I lost my whole 3 readers now?), but I will most likely be voting for McCain/Palin as I am absolutely terrified of what could happen should Obama become President. You know, I have been seriously considering getting a teaching degree through some kind of online/home program as I fear our country is headed in a way that is going to seriously restrict our freedom to homeschool. (At this point, I'm thinking I need to change the title of my post.) I know there is the whole other side to voting one's values, and not fear voting, and if I was REALLY trusting God, I should vote for someone entirely different, but I do feel this would be giving a vote to Obama, which at this point, I am not willing to do. It does seem like a "lesser of two evils" kind of thing, but for me, McCain is our best realistic hope of preserving freedoms that I dearly value, and Obama's evil is in a whole other category than McCain. I will say, all this discussion has been causing me to pause, so I am going to be thinking and praying about it.

"As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths." Isaiah 3:12

I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. I Timothy 5:14

Titus 2:3-5 3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5. To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." Titus 2: 3-5

If you're interested in reading some more of this side of it, here are a few links: Even if you don't agree, it is a very eye opening side of this discussion.

Generation Cedar (you'll have to scroll down to her late August/early September posts, there were several)

Life In A Shoe #1 (click through to read Doug Phillips' take as well)

Life In A Shoe #2 (I should add that I've not fully investigated some of what she says)

Vaughnshire Farm (they have several posts as well, but I think they are all still on the main page)

Voddie Baucham Ministries

I'm sure I've firmly labeled myself as one of those right-wing conservatives that closes my ears and eyes and sticks my head in the sand, that doesn't care about the poor or the environment, not to mention someone who wants women chained to the kitchen, but I'm not. I will admit freely, though, that I am pretty much a one issue voter. Abortion. In my opinion, the way a leader values (or doesn't value) life says more about character than any other issue, and the working out of this core value in every other area of life would determine economic policy, foreign policy, treatment of the poor (google Obama's brother for a very interesting story! Not sure how much of a gimmick this is, I'm just saying.), even taxes and environmental issues. Obama supports abortion. Abortion regardless of stage of pregnancy, regardless of reason. Not only that, he voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Do you know what this is??!! He is not only okay with , but supports infants that survive abortion attempts being left to die. (If you're brave, watch the YouTube Video.) They literally put these precious babies in closets, crying, cold, and hungry, and leave them to die. Only 15 House members voted against the act, and the Senate passed the act unanimously. Even NARAL (National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League) did not oppose this bill. I Will Not Vote For Him. God help us if this man is chosen to lead and represent our nation.

Anyway, in a perfect world, we would have a perfect candidate, but hey, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need an earthly ruler, so for now, I'm going with the person that has a shot at winning and wouldn't walk away from a living baby (or his own brother. I'm telling you, google it.) Not to mention all the socialistic policies he would love to implement, but that's a whole other topic.

I also realize there is the whole topic of the war, but frankly (I'm all about frank and blunt right now, I'm kind of in a mood this week.), I think the war has saved lives. You know, the whole break the bonds of oppression, free the captives, etc. The cost to us vs the benefit to the Iraqi people is a non issue for me. And to be even more blunt, I think it makes God happy too. If I lived in a country where my daughters would be beaten, tortured, raped, etc. because I disagreed with the government, and another big country had the ability to come in and bring freedom, you can bet I'd be questioning their God if they didn't do it. But that's just my opinion. You're entitled to your's. And another side note, (shhh. In the primaries, we voted for Ron Paul. Not sure if we'd do it again, but we're all about smaller government, lower taxes, a return to the Constitution, etc. Although we didn't agree with him on the war, we agreed with him on principle.)

That's all I have energy for right now. I've resisted going all political on you until now, and I don't really have plans to make it a regular topic, but it amazes me how many Christians I know (sorry if you're in this camp, it's my blog, and it's just what I think about it) that will even consider voting for him. I have no delusions of Bush being perfect, and certainly not McCain, but save a true intervention from God, either McCain or Obama is going to be our next President, and I am not going to be party to bringing a culture of death and restriction of freedom to this nation.

I put up a poll. I would LOVE IT if you would vote. Even if you live another country, I'm curious to know what you think. Also, comments are welcome, as long as they're nice. You don't have to agree, just be nice. You can even comment anonymously :o) I would really, really love to hear your opinions if you have differing views, namely, which ones and why. I realize I'm not perfect, and am under no delusions that what I think about things is always correct. So I'm up for discussion. No one ever comments when I ask you to, but PLEASE consider it, and again, anonymous is totally okay :o)

One last thing, I have a few friends that completely remove themselves from the political process, not voting, and just basically ignoring the whole thing. These are some very good friends, and I love them dearly, although I do not understand this at all. But life and friendship isn't all politics, eh? If any of you fall in this camp, I would also really, really like it if you would explain your side.

I'm done now. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...uh, blogging. I'm off to have a baked potato and orange juice for lunch.

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Wendy said...

I voted 'other' on your poll, because I'm not sure if I'll vote, and am confused. Let me think out loud for a second. Abortion is a big issue for me, but if I vote based on that alone (as I did last election), I wonder what good that does. How often does the president pass or veto abortion related bills? (I have no idea, so I'm asking.) The other instance where he (or she?) could be an influence is in the apointment of a supreme court judge...
I would like to find a candidate I really would like to back and just vote on principal, but never have been able to find one, and don't know if that would be the best thing to do or not.
And I don't know what to think about Palin, either, except that I don't like her hair-do. I can't say that I'm freaked out by her not being the stay-at-home, but just really, really don't understand why anyone (let alone a mother of a young child) would WANT to be in politics. But that's just me. ;)

lillianb said...

wendy makes sense... the fact that christians are all about mccain b/c he chose palin, who is pro-life is ok. but the fact that he was >this< close to another candidate who is pro-choice doesn't seem to matter. if the pro-life issue was so important to him, he wouldn't have had pro-choice people on his short list.

i'm not sure about the "she should only be at home" thing...some people are not fulfilled by staying home only. i am one of those. i would literally go insane if i were only responsible for my home. that is why i also work. my gifting is NOT my home. i enjoy it, and when i am disciplined about what i do with the kids, especially so.

i am not sure why you were adamant about obama's brother...i googled him and did not get the impression of anything someone would be outraged about? just wondering which thing you were referring to.

i am voting for obama. i don't think that i completely am behind him 100%. of course i'm not. i couldn't be with anyone, i'm sure. but, i think that he is not the terrorist that he is being portrayed as in the fox news crowd, and have yet to see why everyone is claiming to be "terrified" of him...but i also don't watch fox news, so i wouldn't be receiving the same messages.

i'm sure there's more...i am like the grace center female obama defender...hah! (chris is the male counterpart. haha)

Shyla said...

I'm with you, I wouldn't want to be in politics either, but I believe Palin's entry into it was gradual, and came about by her desire to effect change on the local level.

Abortion bills are introduced on the federal level pretty much every year. Oftentimes more than one. Congress passed the partial birth abortion act twice during Clinton's second term, and he vetoed it both times. I remember being in the seventh grade, and three days after his inauguration, he signed an order reversing the ban on federal funding for international abortion programs, and ordered military hospitals to perform abortions on demand. Off the top of my head, I know during the Bush administration, the issue of partial birth abortion was revisted (passed and signed into law by Bush), the infant born alive protection act, the abortion anesthesia bill (pain relief for babies undergoing abortion), and the unborn victims of violence act (which was opposed by pro choice groups as it gave recognition to fetuses as persons.) Obviously, the makeup of the current Congress at the time would determine how involved the actual President would be during a given term. Currently, with the Democratic party in control, I would think it would be vital to have someone in the position to veto any bills that would be passed in favor of fewer restrictions on abortion.

And, as you mentioned, there's the whole Supreme Court Justice issue, and most people think the next President will appoint at least one, if not two. To me, this is our best chance at dealing with a lot of unsavory legislation that has been passed over the past few decades, bringing with it the chance for some real reform. Not that McCain would necessarily choose who I would, but I'd take his pick and his views on things over Obama's any day.

As far as using the abortion issue as a litmus test, for me it comes back to not just the act itself, but what his/her belief and values say about the kind of decisions a leader will make in many areas. To me, the way a person values life created by God, says more about his or her character than any other hot button issue we currently face, that is why I use it as a plumb line of sorts. The devaluing of human life is a steep and slippery slope, and a quick review of world history will show what quickly happens when a leader and/or nation begins to decide whose life is worth living and whose is not.

lillianb said...

"The devaluing of human life is a steep and slippery slope, and a quick review of world history will show what quickly happens when a leader and/or nation begins to decide whose life is worth living and whose is not."

which is why i don't like war.

Shyla said...


The thing with Obama's brother was just kind of an interesting side story to me. I only briefly heard of it last night, and the idea that he has this impoverished brother in a third world country when his wife is making disparaging comments about the economic stimulus being peanuts to people and it just buying her a pair of $600 earrings was kind of ironic coming from the party that "cares about the poor." I didn't really mean to be adamant about it, I just thought it was kind of a tongue in cheek kind of thing. It's just that conservatives are so often portrayed as not caring about the poor, when that $600 pair of earrings could change his life. I did see some info and that he's happy with his life, again, I just found it interesting. And in the spirit of honesty, I am completely guilty of the same thing on a much smaller scale.

I do realize McCain's abortion record isn't spotless, it just comes back to me that he is running for the party that opposes it, and I believe he will uphold his word. I don't have the time to fully investigate all of it, but to me, he's our best chance at limiting and/or ending it. There's no way Obama would.

Okay, so you'll vote Obama. Why? What are your reasons? This is an honest question, not at all asked in the spirit of judgement :o)
I'm really kind of glad to have a Christian friend that I can ask this to, because I cannot get my brain around how Christians can get past this issue. I do realize there are other issues that effect human life, but abandoning living babies? I would really, really like to hear why you support him over McCain (or anyone else), how you justify voting for him, and I promise to still be your friend :o)

As far as the stay at home thing, that's even a touchier subject than abortion, isn't it, as it's so personal :o) I know in my life and in my blogging I come across as this perfectly happy stay at home mom, that finds complete joy and fulfillment in what I do, but in reality, it is OFTEN a struggle. I am selfish, I like to be alone, I like to do what I want to do with my time, I don't like kids so much (except my own, ha ha... i don't dislike them, i'm just not a kid person. that's why glen teaches sunday school and not me!), and I would have loved to be an American History Teacher. Or just sit around and read all day. My thoughts and beliefs on it can really be summed up by reading those links I left, but I will say that you working from your home, in my opinion, and that's really all this whole blog is, is not un-Biblical. The "perfect" Proverbs 31 woman worked from her home, I guess it just really comes down to what God is saying and if one is willing to follow His plan, even when that looks different from their own. Please don't think I'm judging you at all, I am really glad to count you as one of my friends, not to mention, you have a fabulously dressed daughter :o)

And please read this in a humble, I am not perfect, I am painfully aware of my shortcomings attitude. Most of the time, I am preaching to myself :o)

Seriously, though, I would really love to hear your reasons for

1. voting for Obama
2. what is it about McCain/the Republian party that you don't like and would like to see changed

Shyla said...

"The devaluing of human life is a steep and slippery slope, and a quick review of world history will show what quickly happens when a leader and/or nation begins to decide whose life is worth living and whose is not."

lillian - "which is why i don't like war."

I agree. War is ugly. But it is also Biblical. It is a vehicle that God used in eradicating evil.
Do we differ in opinion that Sadaam was evil? What would have happened in World War II if America had sat by passively?

Okay, my sister is home with my kids, one of which threw up in the car and the other is crying over an upset tummy. Gotta run.

lillianb said...

i hadn't heard that michelle obama comment, so i found it here:
an obviously anti-obama site.

here is what they said:

“You're getting $600 - what can you do with that?” Mrs. Obama said in Pontiac, Michigan last week. “Not to be ungrateful or anything, but maybe it pays down a bill, but it doesn't pay down every bill every month. The short-term quick fix kinda stuff sounds good, and it may even feel good that first month when you get that check, and then you go out and you buy a pair of earrings."

honestly, i'm not sure how that doesn't make sense!? she doesn't say she is spending $600 on earrings. she is saying that getting help as a quick fix does not do it. that there needs to be more long-term solutions. that if you get that $600 check, yes, you THINK you are going to be responsible, but really when you get it, you just buy something frivolous. that's how i read it. all in the eye of the interpreter, maybe.

i am working on my "why" of obama's. i'll get it to you asap. :)

oh, and sorry about the puking kids. gross!

Shyla said...

Everyone seems okay, thankfully!

I hesitated to mention that comment, as when I looked it up on several sites, it came across to me the same way it did to you. The more I read though, even left leaning commentators were responding to it as if she meant it in the way I implied.

julianalovespy said...


I am also voting for Obama and I am extremely pro-life. I can no longer vote for the republicans just based on that one issue and then hold my nose at what they otherwise do. (Such as start an unjust, illegal and immoral war to protect 'our way of life'. More on war later.)

Regarding abortion, here is a link to an interesting article on a recent abortion study (which contains a link to the study it references). The results of the study showed since most (almost 75%) of abortions are chosen because of financial issues, social policies that assist the poor actually reduce the abortion rate. Oh the other hand, legal actions, such as parental consent laws, do not reduce abortions.


The only thing the republicans are doing to reduce abortion is to try to make it illegal, and while I hope and pray for that day to come, there is nothing they are doing in the meantime that would prevent many of them. The abstinence programs do not work, yet they are unwilling to do any other type of education to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies from occurring in the first place. They are also against economic policies that assist the poor and would cause people to keep their babies (and that are godly, according to the levitical law in the bible. The book Just Generosity, by Ronald Sider is a GREAT resource on the spiritual AND economic problems and solutions of poverty, with great biblical references.)

So in my opinion, the republicans are only concerned about the babies in the womb, but once they are born, they are content to let them raise themselves and get their own selves out of poverty if they are so unfortunate to be born into that environment.

Speaking of poverty, I also think the republican position on immigration is extremely ungodly. The bible says to welcome the stranger among us and talks a lot about the treatment of aliens.

This comment is LONG, so I'll write another one about the war. I am so glad to be discussing these things in a kind and civil way. I am so tired of people just tossing out the "talking points" but never actually getting into the 'why I believe this' part of it. Thanks for hosting this discussion! I am too afraid to write anything about it on my blog because I know a lot of people feel very differently about than I do and I am afraid of nasty comments. (Not that any of my 4 readers are nasty....but it is a big internet & who knows who would come along...)

julianalovespy said...

Now, about the war. I am very, very against the war. I do not think that when Jesus said to love your enemies and bless those who curse you, he meant for us to drop bombs on them and kill them and any other innocent bystanders. - see this article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1838778,00.html

I know in the Old Testament, God had his people fighting many wars, and he even had them kill the children of their enemies, but we are not living under that law anymore. Maybe then, it was the only way to preserve the lineage of Jesus, so he could tell the story of his son through a people group called Israel - I DON'T KNOW.

When Jesus came, he taught a new way of living - blessing instead of cursing, forgiveness instead of revenge, the last shall be first, etc. He basically turned the world upside down for those who were looking for a political and military messiah to deliver them from the Roman oppression. But he didn't fight them, he loved them.

There is even a theological doctrine called the Just War doctrine, which gives provisions for entering into wars that would be biblically justifiable. I believe that the war in Iraq was unjust, illegal and immoral. I think it was and continues to be a travesty and a humanitarian crisis.

It is true that Sadaam Hussein killed many people for his own purposes, but many many others have been killed because of our irresponsible invasion of that country. What about all the conscripted soldiers in the Iraqi army that were only fighting because they would be killed? What about all the civilians that were first oppressed by a dictator and then orphaned, maimed or killed by a super power? I wonder what they think? What could be so valuable as to be worth the lives of those poor people? They will never get a chance to hear or receive the freedom Jesus has for them. How dare we choose to kill them so that others have the freedom to perhaps hear the gospel! What a sad gospel that would be.

So basically, that is what I think about the war. An interesting book to read that talks some more about it (as well as some other things about poverty, etc.) is The Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claiborne. The author visited some Iraqi Christians during the war and you can hear from their viewpoint as well.

Another good book to read about Jesus is The Challenge of Jesus by N.T. Wright. He is a historian who writes about what Jesus was saying within the historical context in which he lived.

Thanks for 'listening' and I look forward to hearing about what you think! I'll write more about Palin later, but first I have to get Bella some dinner!

Patti and Audrey said...

Wow! I am just floored! I can NOT wrap my head around anyone voting for Obama that respects life at all. If we are so worried about killing innocent lives in other countries then why aren't we so worried about the killing of unborn innocent lives in our own country? I agree with you on how you value life being an influence on your decisions in general.

What concerns me the most is his lack of a record. The issues he has voted on were few and far between. And when he did vote, he voted against things like the Born Alive Protection act (3 TIMES!!).He is a demagogue (a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power). We have no real proof of how he stands on any issue. He can sit there and tell the public whatever he wants because he has no record of how he would vote on those issues. He tries to be everything to everyone. No what I am looking for in a leader of the free world.

Oh and I haven't even mentioned his stance on Israel which is a huge issue for me! And the fact that he was quoted as having said that he reverts back to his Muslim ways when he feels overwhelmed!!! And his dad is a devout Muslim with 3 wives! I feel that I am rightly afraid of him and what he will do to our country.

So I voted that I was voting for McCain (the lesser of two evils) because I was afraid of Obama!

(And I'm sure that people will want to disregard my comments all together because I married into a very prominent politically involved conservative family. But I have held these beliefs for much longer than I have been married. Not to mention I weep most every night in fear of what will happen if I have to live under Obama's idea of what our nation should be.)

Tisra said...

I'm tired right now and can't do the political thing justice right now. I'm voting for McCain, as far as I can tell unless things change before elections (someone drops out, dies, or something crazy). I like Palin.

I *really* got on the blog, though, to say "Congratulations". I saw Elizabeth last week after she picked up Tegan and Adi and she told me you were expecting. So very cool. Hope you are feeling well, or at least have enough support to get you through the rough spots.


Michelle said...

I'm a South African Canadian, so I won't comment on the political side of things. I will say though that I have been very, very troubled by the role model that Sarah Palin is to Christian women. I am shocked that professing Christians are jumping up and down celebrating her rise to political stardom. She is replaceable as a governor or a VP, but she is not replaceable as those precious Palin children's mom. Scripture is clear about the wonderful design He has for biblical motherhood and the honour and privilege we have in the domain that is our primary responsibility. Too many Christian women have believed the feminist lie of the enemy that they can "do it all". The church desperately needs older Titus 2 women to show the way by example and for the younger women to walk obediently and be keepers AT home (so that the Word of God will not be blasphemed - Titus 2:5). The spiritual health of our families and churches is at stake. Our witness to the world is at stake. I cringe every time I see Sarah Palin up there giving it stick - I wish I could tell her that she needs to go home - her family needs her more than Washington does.

kylah'smommy said...

I am a friend of a friend and have very much enjoyed reading your remarks. I agree with you. I am for McCain/Palin for many of your reasons and also for the "gun rights". Being married to a gun collector/hunter, I have heard a great deal about how Obama will ban gun purchases...(I don't know all the facts, so that much will have to do).

I admire your ability to keep your ground when opposing views are brought to you. You seem like a wonderful person. Hope to meet you someday. K

Wendy said...

Shyla- thanks for the response to my questions. That helps.

A few more thoughts. As Lillian said, I don't believe that every woman's calling is the home. One size does not fit all. That would be like saying that every Christian ought to live a life of poverty like Mother Teresa. The body is made up of different parts. Believing that we all ought to be the same kind of Christian is why there is so much division in the church.

I am beginning to see the Bible more in the light of it being a progressive revelation. The beginning teaches us like toddlers: do this and don't do that. Later, we understand the reasons for those rules, and they change a bit as we grow. It would be silly to slap your teenager's hand and say 'no' when they pick up a cigarette.

So anyway, I believe that when we all are sensitive to the convictions that God gives us individually, and acknowledge the different giftings and callings in others, that is when we will really be a light to those that don't know God.

julianalovespy said...

Wow, Shyla, did you ever think you would get SO many long comments? =)

Here's my Palin comment for what it is worth. My husband just sent me a link from an organization I've never heard of, but who apparently feel the same way about her that I do, so I will quote from them in a second & link to that post.

I have to start by saying I didn't know anything about her before she spoke except what the press said that whole week, but it was the media, so I wasn't going to decide about her until I heard her speech. So my opinion is based on her speech only and not what the media or anyone says.

I have conflicting feelings about her motherhood and her choices to work, and I hope her children are getting to see her as much as the voters are, especially this next few weeks. Also, since McCain is so old & has health problems, she could literally be a breath away from becoming president, and then what would happen to her little children? I can't see her having much time as president to help her daughter with her new baby or minister to the special needs of her own baby.

Ok, here's the quote from the site I was talking about before (http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5167/t/3594/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=447):

"As Christians, we are called to be respectful and loving toward our neighbors, honoring their intentions even if we disagree with their plans. We are also called to "put away falsehood" (Eph 4:25) and to refrain from slandering, belittling, or speaking out of contempt for anyone."

"If these are the standards God has set for us in our personal lives, our church communities, and our neighborhoods, how much more so should they be the standards of those Christians who choose to be in the public eye? Shouldn't we also expect our brothers and sisters in politics to speak the truth in love and to extend respect and goodwill even to those with whom they disagree?"

"Sarah Palin has shaped much of her life around her Christian faith. Indeed, it has been continually suggested that one of the major reasons John McCain chose Palin as his running-mate was her Christian faith and her ability to energize evangelical Christian voters. Thus, it is no stretch to say that Palin has suddenly become one of the most visible faces of Christianity in today’s political scene."

"As such, we believe she has a calling even higher than her responsibility to her party's victory in November - a calling to represent Jesus to the rest of the world. This is why her speech at the Republican National Convention was so disappointing to us at the Matthew 25 Network."

"In questioning not only Senator Obama’s policies but also his motivations, and mocking his career, Palin went far beyond what could be considered acceptable disagreement and into what seemed like open contempt for a political opponent."

"To be blunt, we saw very little of Jesus’ love in Sarah Palin's speech, as she heaped contempt on those who disagree with her politically, while offering no vision for how to resolve the critical issues facing Americans today like job loss, health care, growing child poverty rates and the war in Iraq."

"Moreover, as has been documented by major media sources including the Associated Press, Palin spoke falsehoods not only about her own record, but about Barack Obama's record as a State Senator and as a U.S. Senator. As Christians, we are called throughout Scripture to speak the whole truth, to put away falsehood, to bear true witness even when it hurts our own interests. The name of Jesus should never be associated with falsehoods or deception, but in Sarah Palin’s speech, we believe it was."

Julie here again: I was very disappointed in her for treating Obama with such disrespect, especially in light of the fact that he was the ONLY person on the left who said people should stop talking about her family and that her children should be off limits (when everyone was having a field day about her pregnant daughter). She could have at least thanked him for his compassion.

If she is to be a Deborah or Esther, then in my opinion, she should start acting a little more like Christ and a lot less like the typical politician. Of all the four candidates' speeches, hers was by far the most nasty and untruthful, which is shameful behavior for a believer.

Anyway, that is what I think about all the political stuff. I am glad that you hosted this discussion and hope we can all still be friends and respectful of one another even when we disagree. Have a great day!

Lori said...

I have really enjoyed reading all the comments. I love how different we all are. I still admire ALL of you wonderful women of God, and I'm impressed at your civility! This is good stuff. Thanks, Shyla, for starting the discussion.

lillianb said...

@julie: thanks for that! that is what i have been talking about...that she did NOT exemplify a christlike attitude with that speech. i love how obama has totally been saying calm, unpointed things about her in response. that, i think, is the higher road.

the things i do like about obama, since i never answered that, are basically his healthcare proposition, his mindset for overall helping the poor, and i think he has strong character. i mean, as strong as any politician can have...

there are more, i'm sure, but that's what i can think of off the top of my head, and my brain has been fried by kiddos today!

mamatutwo said...

Wow! What a discussion! I am voting for McCain/Palin because of fear of Obama. Big fear. His remarks about abortion and about not wanting his daughters to be "punished" with a baby because of a mistake that they made as a teenager as well as his real lack of saying anything substantial on most issues are big reasons.

I know that this issue is kind of dead in the water now, but anyone who has had an issue with wearing a flag pin on his lapel...I have a problem thinking of him as the president of our country.

Obama is oh, so smooth.....very polished, but he wants to say the right thing so that he can be elected. He is slow to actually commit to positions on lots of topics....

I'd so much rather our president be a little rough around the edges but have a stand to defend and be honest and open in who he is.

Heather said...

I tend to keep mmy political thoughts to myself, but I'll add just a few things here.

I don't know how Palin would/does juggle being a mom and being a high ranking official, but how do any of us balance motherhood and careers? I have a demanding career that gives me great satisfaction and I feel makes a difference, and somehow I do a pretty good job of "having it all." Surely she can too. And a comment from my husband: several of our more recent Presidents have had children at home during their time in office. That certainly took them away from their families a lot, but no one ever made a fuss about that...

And my main reason for not supporting Obama is his (and probably moreso his party's) socialist tendencies. I'm a big believer in personal responsiblity and don't want the government taking care of me. I'll do that myself, thanks.

Valerie said...

Oh wow, Shyla... yes this is an interesting comment column. I must be somewhat short, as it is almost 2 am.

I'm voting for McCain/Palin. Why? Well, in general, I believe that pair most reflects my same morals, standards and beliefs.... of course not 100%, but closer than O/B.

The abortion debate is high on my reasoning list for voting M/P. I just can't stomach voting for someone who is okay with allowing abortions.
I agree with another poster in that I do not want the government taking control of my healthcare. We live in America-land of the free. Same with gun control... I believe in the right to bear arms. We live in America people!!
Another big thing, for me, is that I believe in marriage between a man and a woman. I do not want to see 'gay rights' added as a lifestyle that is appropriate. I will teach my daughter that marriage is for man and woman according to God.
In general, I believe that McCain has better experience for the position than Obama.
I do not believe that he, McCain, is the perfect candidate... but I just agree with him more than Obama.

Shyla, you are doing a great job at delivering your beliefs and questionning those who do not share the same views. You are both respectful and humble. I appreciate that.

Kohana said...

Well I must be the reader "in another country". :) I'm sure you will find it to be unbelievable, but I believe I will vote for Obama because I am pro-life, and here's why: I don't think we are making substantial progress on the abortion issue through legislation. It seems to be a ping-pong match back and forth. Something gets passed, something gets vetoed, there are restrictions, restrictions are relaxed.

I don't believe that women have abortions flippantly. I believe most women have abortions because they are in situations where they don't have many choices. Poverty, lack of support, lack of housing, no job and means to provide, no access to healthcare, domestic abuse, etc. In my opinion, it is in addressing these issues that we will make the greatest strides in reducing the number of abortions.

The U.S. actually has one of the lower abortion rates in the world. Countries where they are off the charts are those where poverty is rampant, and women do not have many rights, and no resources. Empowering women (and families) reduces the number of women who find themselves in a crisis situation where they cannot find a way out.

So that's a big issue for me. Also, I would encourage you to read "Dreams of my Father" or "The Audacity of Hope" to get a clearer picture of Obama's values, as well as a clear representation of his family structure.

The Saddleback Forums were really a turning point for me in considering Obama. He displayed a sincerity and humility (especially on the question concerning evil) that McCain completely lacked.

Finally, foreign policy is a major issue for me. McCain made a statement that any time America has been involved around the globe, it has been for the benefit of the country we're in. That broke my heart. We have a laundry list of injustices that we have committed around the world. I so appreciate that Obama has lived in Hawaii, Indonesia, that he has family in Kenya (including Muslim family), that he is biracial. He understands that the American lens through which we view the world doesn't equal truth, perfection, or Godliness. He has a value for other countries and the complexity of poverty/help/politics that I think our country needs right now.

How ironic that my conscience cannot let me vote for McCain, while yours can not allow you to consider Obama. I'm glad we are each able to seek God's guidance and follow His leading to find peace in these hard times, and the challenging decisions we must make.

Anonymous said...

Funny how the obama supporters are so quick to point out the "As Christians, we are called to be respectful and loving toward our neighbors" issue in regards to palin. obama "claims" to be a believer too. what about they way he is attacking other people and the message that sends?

"How can it be a large career to tell other people’s children about arithmetic, and a small career to tell one’s own children about the universe? How can it be broad to be the same thing to everyone, and narrow to be everything to someone? No; a woman’s function is laborious, but because it is gigantic, not because it is minute. I will pity Mrs. Jones for the hugeness of her task; I will never pity her for its smallness." ~GK Chesterton

2012 November

2012 November